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Annex II – Minutes from the Workshop with Stakeholders on 22 March 2023

Panel 22nd of March 2023
Hosted by the Swedish Environmental Protection Agency
Notes taken by Eleonora Rönström and Erik Ahrberg
Ministry of Climate and Enterprise at the Swedish Government
13.00–13.15 Welcome remarks and brief introduction by Anders Turesson, former Senior Advisor at the Swedish Ministry of Environment. Presentation of the agenda and speakers.
Anders Turesson informs the participants that the webinar is being recorded and that the recording will be deleted after the notes have been distributed.
Marie Karlberg holds a short presentation about the Nordic Council of Ministers and its’ vision for the Nordic countries along with PowerPoint presentation slides.

13.15–13.45 Presentation of the report – Professor Jan Darpö
Jan Darpö presents the report along with PowerPoint presentation slides.

13.45–­14.40 Panel of stakeholders addressing key questions related to the report
(8 min each).

Participants
Moderator: Anders Turesson
Denmark: Jill Jean-Francois Morales, Arla Food
Finland: Matti Kattainen, Finnish Association for Nature Conservation (FANC)
Iceland: Ally Johansdottir, professor in Environmental Law at Iceland University
Norway: Gunnar Grini and Andreas Pihlstrøm, Norsk Industri
Sweden: Oscar Alarik, Swedish Society for Nature Conservation

Notes

Jill Jean-Francois Morales: Arla Foods have 22 production sites in Denmark with a diverse production. Overall, we have a good communication and cooperation with the agencies although there are areas of improvement. I have read the report and made some reflections about some possible points of discussion.
On page 31 there’s talk about “eternal permits” and “time limited permits”. I noticed the overall statement is that there’s a common work to reduce the emissions and other environmental effects of the permitted activities like it is done in Norway ­– in this case I think that for the rest of our countries that are part of the EU this would be bad. As an example, Arla started “taking the elephant to pieces” by having pilot sessions and taking all the different areas that were bad, like noise, water, etc. and looked at our sites. We came up with a pilot plan that was up to legislation and if it worked, we rolled it out to other sites that fall under the same umbrella. It has worked perfectly and we have biweekly dialogues regarding this.
Another point of reflection from the report has to do with a conversation with a fellow Dane concerning autonomous municipalities that sometimes forget to spar with environmental agencies when drawing up plans. When they change their local plans, they do not always inform the agencies. Decisions could then be made on old/outdated information. As an industry that could lead to discrepancies and complicate the process due to necessary re-negotiation. That is something Arla has noticed and want to discuss the communication problems while keeping the autonomy.
Another point, about page 33 of the report, is some relevant examples from Arla. There can be a change/increase in production, maybe a site produces milk and yoghurt but it has been decided that it should start producing cream too, it can alter the original permission as it could be a significant change. [Time is running up for the discussion]. To summarize the industry perspective on this matter: the communication with agencies is very good. One thing that is difficult is to know when it is needed or not needed to apply for an environmental impact assessment.
Matti Kattainen: One thing that is important from the NGO point of view is the lack of resources in authorities. When things fall in between chairs for the authorities and a lack of communication it is a problem. It affects how the civil society views the legitimacy of the legal system. In general, many things are good but there are rooms for improvement. In Finland the hottest areas are mining and questions affecting Sami people. It is common in Finland that when the application comes you must renew it many times and there’s a lack of information, and that takes time. We have many separate authorities in for example mining and they may be lacking some opinions. NGOs lack resources, only a couple of lawyers etc. and with separate authorities it is much harder to keep up with all different cases, there are for example many new projects in Lapland. With one authority for all permits it would be a lot easier for everyone.
To summarize, I think it should go more to the comprehensive permitting process in Finland. Some laws have been amended in Finland this spring so you should look at those, like nature conservation act and mining act.
Ally Johansdottir: Very interesting comparison in the report and a few surprises. As written in the report the systems and constitutional traditions are not the same between countries. There are differences in legal cultures.  This plays a role. It caught my attention. There’s a misunderstanding in Iceland about how the EIA is conducted in Denmark and Norway, it’s completely different from Iceland. The issue regarding if you have one or two procedures is central and has been a major issue in Iceland, we have two procedures which is probably based on misunderstanding of how the Danish system is. Three issues caught my attention, some of them should be further researched.
About administrative appeal and judicial review – how it takes place in Norway differs from the picture you get when you read about the Norwegian system in textbooks. No administrative courts in Norway like in Sweden or Finland and no boards like in Denmark and Iceland. I’m curious about how the implementation of Aarhus and the Directive takes place in Norway.
Another thing, the case processing time differs a little. I was under the impression that Iceland had the lengthiest process when you take everything into account, like spatial planning etc. That is what the stakeholders in Iceland argue. But Iceland’s procedure is not as lengthy as thought – maybe it’s the shortest. This should be further researched. Would be beneficial for all stakeholders to see how long time all different steps take.
The last thing I noticed is that the Icelandic permits are time limited which stands out.
To wrap up: very interesting and useful to have this kind of comparison. The timelines could be a very interesting comparison, in Iceland it is often argued that the Icelandic processes are very lengthy.
Andreas Pihlstrøm: The report is well written and very spot on regarding the Norwegian system. Regarding the permitting processes, the processing time is quite similar in Nordic countries. We believe that better dialogue, information, and skilled personnel are key factors for improvement.
Secondly the sectors want to point out that we need to speed up the process for the green establishment. We see the need for a green fast track.
Thirdly, we are aware of the different proceedings in all the countries. Sweden is especially interesting with the split between licensing and enforcing authorities to prevent conflict of interest.
Regarding the new BAT- conclusions. 4 years are challenging. We suggest 6 years.
Oskar Alarik: The report is a very good starting point for cooperation in this area. I recognize many of the issues brought up by Matti Kattainen. The report points out pros and cons with the different systems, I had no idea that the systems differed so much. We have seen our share of very flawed assessments. We think that the integrated approach is healthier in the long run since the environmental aspects are closely linked to each other. We also often see changes quite late in the processes and it’s important to be able to take these into account.
Regarding case processing time, it is a major theme in the Swedish political debate. Stakeholders here think that the Swedish processing times are extremely lengthy compared to all of Europe. It is a relief to see that this is not really the case. There is unreasonably big focus on the environmental authorities and law and not so much on the applicant side and what applicants can do to not slow down the process. An example is that sometimes we have seen that the applicant has hired a consultant to examine a possible site for an activity. The examination is often carried out in the middle of the winter and does not fairly represent the wildlife in the area etc. When the NGOs carry out a new examination the result is totally different, they find rich floras/faunas or similar that have been overlooked.
Another thing is talk about mining permits: in Sweden there is a double process, this should be overlooked and transferred to the environmental courts. Also, there is a lot of talk about wind farms and the municipal veto in an unregulated process. We hope this will be dealt with soon, it looks that way, there are good proposals in this area.
Lastly, about eternal permits. We are deeply worried about eternal permits conserving old technology, and we think we need more time limited permits.
Anders Turesson: Are there any instant reactions to each other’s presentations?
Jill Jean-Francois Morales: Based on Matti Kattainens presentation; about lack of resources. This is a reality not only in Denmark, but other countries as well. It’s an interesting point to discuss.
Anders Turesson: Time for a break.  
14.40–14.50 Break (updated time 14.20-14.35)

14.50–15.30 Moderated questions to the panel

Notes

Anders Turesson: Let’s start off with some points of discussion from the last session. Would anyone like to advertise something that works especially well in their national system?
Jill Jean-Francois Morales: The ability to be sparring partners with agencies during the process. It is very helpful, especially when we’re expanding or have new resources on site that lack experience from the process. Authorities have been very cooperative.
Gunnar Grini: It’s easy for the companies to reach out to the case handler/authority. At least with EPA but probably also with state handlers, they can maintain the same people in the system for quite some time and are able to build up younger staff as well.
Oskar Alarik: The environmental court system in Sweden should be highlighted. The court system has led to richer processes and better predictability for applicants. The environmental courts are specialised and have officials who are experts in certain fields, the process is more informed. The supreme environmental courts have functions that makes it more predictable through precedence.
Ally Johansdottir: The positive issue of accessibility to documents in Iceland. All public licenses are available. The municipalities’ licenses are not available yet. I was curious about the licensing in Norway, and how they integrated the decision making of the water directive. When I looked it up, nothing was available, in Iceland it would have been a lot easier. Everything is accessible.
Matti Kattainen: The new legislation that has passed, new climate act is very good, good access to justice. The new nature act coming is also very good and it will be monumental in the coming years.
Anders Turesson: Follow up question to Oskar Alarik; can you expand your statements about the courts?
Oskar Alarik: It’s a big issue but the environmental courts are specialized in this aspect. It gives a more informed process. The Supreme Environmental Court helps the predictability by giving precedents.
Jan Darpö: There’s a major difference between Norwegian system and others, where Norway have decision making on a national level rather than regional. It’s harder to keep experienced, well-educated personnel in many regional licensing bodies. About fast tracks, Sweden have investigated this option at least two times and dismissed the idea. Most importantly because of the problem of deciding what projects should be in the fast track. All industries will be “green” when it is advantageous to them. And the courts do not have a possibility to prioritize.
Gunnar Grini: To comment on Jan’s input. We didn’t really understand about the Norwegian system, not only one agency is doing the licensing. Maybe we misunderstood. About the fast-track issue, it’s very complex, a fast track will also mean a slow track, and it would be a challenge. Norway is working on new digital solutions for case handling. The most important is what Andreas Pihlstrøm said about complete applications to make the process smoother. There is a tradition regarding a good dialogue between companies and agencies. More EU-legislation pointing towards fast track. EU is willing to set up fast-tracks regarding the green transition. It all depends on setting up defined criteria. Companies will be disappointed if they’re put in the slow track. 
Jill Jean-Francois Morales: A practical example that has been applied to us recently because of energy crisis, we classified production sites depending on necessity; protected or not protected sites. Protected sites that produced “fresh sites”. Sort of a fast track. It was a very pressured situation and I think we could learn from this. Guidelines are necessary for when the sites are qualified as protected or not. Otherwise, it’s confusing for the companies. It helps with dividing the workload between sites and permits. Maybe we could look at the guidelines from energy authority, very good concrete examples that can guide the flow of work in the companies.
Oskar Alarik: About the need for a fast track. There’s been two investigations about fast tracks in Sweden and the problem is that it creates procedures inside the procedure. You must find out if a company should be in the fast track or not. It is counterproductive, at least in Sweden.
Ally Johansdottir: I did not know that Sweden had investigated fast tracks. Judges decide all the time whether certain court-cases should be fast tracked. Fast tracking could increase the risk of the case not being properly prepared etc. It’s difficult to decide which procedure should be fast-tracked, which one is “green”.
Matti Kattainen: We have some kind of fast track for Finland, and it’s for court appeals regarding hydrogen battery factories and other green transition projects. They will be picked up first and the courts have to speed up the proceedings. For wind the courts must speed it up as well. A proceeding inside a proceeding could be problematic. Picking up the applicant and fast tracking them is not so much work because you pick it up in the beginning when the application is not so big. Maybe one day of work. It’s a priority but the qualifications are the same. Administrative prioritisations, not legally.
Gunnar Grini: We understand the problem of procedures within procedures. Maybe another entry point should be this; how can we ensure that important projects are not stuck in case admin procedures? Fast track is a way of discussing how we can prioritize important applications within the scope of EU and environmental law. And the priorities that come with the green transition.
Anders Turesson: Okay, let’s move on to views on the EIAs, any thoughts about how applications can be improved?
Oskar Alarik: Replying to Gunnar, a key in climate installations are early discussions with the public concerned and companies and agencies on placement. That is important. You can avoid problematic areas in an early stage. For minerals its harder but other industries its easier. There are many inputs on how to improve EIAs, for example awards for good or bad impact assessments. Certifications on EIAs consultants to get rid of bad quality ones.
Ally Johansdottir: EIA procedures and quality of EIA applications has been an issue since the beginning. Iceland is obsessed with EIAs. Some are very long and good. And the consultants really make an effort to produce good reports. It’s important that the quality is checked by the national planning agency. It’s possible because Iceland is so small. The agency that checks the report is not the same agency that approves it. This procedure prolongs the process. However, it also contributes to the quality of EIAs. The system in Denmark has separate legislations on EIAs. See page 39 in the report. It looks like two procedures, but it is actually integrated. The license agency is also the one checking the quality, and that is not done in Iceland.
Jan Darpö: It is emphasized from governments, companies and other stakeholders that we need to speed up the process and at the same time keep the quality. The EIA procedure often benefits from time. When it comes to procedures regarding wind farms, we see a lot of applications and EIAs that are less adequate. During the public hearing, different authorities and the public concern provide with information, which the permit body takes into account when it asks for amendments. Thus, the procedure in itself gives much more quality to the permit process. To  this background, it is important to not only talk about the speeding up the process, but also how to maintain the environmental requirements according to law.  
Matti Kattainen: In our organisation we talk about more cooperation regarding information and that will help. Many times, the information gathered is not trusted. The idea is that when you are on the same page as NGOs, agencies, companies then the projects are not slowed down due to complaints etc. It can all be handled in the beginning of the proceedings.
Anders Turesson: The importance of good dialogue has been emphasized, what characterizes this and in what stage is it most important?
Oskar Alarik: The earlier the better. You can avoid the worst conflicts of interests, specifically regarding sites.
Jill Jean-Francois Morales: Agree with Oskar Alarik. Sometime in Denmark due to the setup of the municipalities they revise and announce what they have changed regarding the local laws. We must be careful where municipalities take decisions based on old information with regards to maps and planning.
Matti Kattainen: Agree with Oskar Alarik. Earlier is better, and to point out no-go and to-go areas for establishment in the beginning really helps a lot. Industrial parks etc are nice to make it easier to get permits.
Gunnar Grini: Area planning is very important. Many times, it’s a good idea to place new industry where there’s already industry. Not always easy, some judgements in EU complicate this. Maybe there is a water body in that area which usually complicates it a lot. The complexity of the environmental field is tricky, not very easy to understand where new industry should be placed.
Ally Johansdottir: Early dialogue is better, it saves a lot of time and money. Iceland has a new legislation on EIAs from 2021 and one provision is about pre-consultation. The idea is to bring the stakeholders and agencies to the table and discuss issues to avoid stress at a later stage. If I go in another direction, location is such an issue with regards to pollution. It’s a big issue in all the Nordic states, according to Iceland the key actor is not the municipalities but the master planning that is affected by the government. And that puts positive obligations on municipalities with regards to planning for polluting industry.

15.30–15.45 Summary of the discussions by organiser

Jan Darpö gives some practical information about access to the report and about the notes from the webinar being put in an appendix.